Casual Guild Forums
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Gasmask on April 22, 2008, 12:54:13 AM
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Inoculated Against Facts--
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/31/opinion/31offit.html?_r=3&th&emc=th&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
Measles--
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/21/us/21vaccine.html?_r=1&ex=1363838400&en=2156876f5b257d90&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&oref=slogin
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i don't know how idiots can stand in the face of this and claim otherwise. it's worse than religion.
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liberal douche(s)
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This isn't liberal vs conservative. Unless you are some sort of hard-line libertarian I can't see the other side of this insanity.
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it's basic liberty principle shit. there is nothing groundbreaking about the fact that immunizations are necessary for soceity to function. isn't there some more significant cooky shit for you guys to get upset about?
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the issue was that amy has been bitching because i want our kid to get vaccinated and she's been brainwashed by this new legion of wellness parasites to think that western medicine is evil.
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there's always going to be morons. when YOUR liberty is taken to the extreme of infringing on the liberty of the entire community, then you have compromised freedom. this is simple stuff.
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it's basic liberty principle shit. there is nothing groundbreaking about the fact that immunizations are necessary for soceity to function. isn't there some more significant cooky shit for you guys to get upset about?
Next thing you'll be telling us that circumcision is just the bees knees, and should be mandated for everyone.
The presence of medical exemptions for vaccinations is, perhaps, the product of a liberal mindset, but people that actually take advantage of it for stupid reasons aren't being lolfreedom, they're just stupid.
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circumcision does not directly affect other people that would otherwise be completely uninvolved with the individual. not vaccinating creates a dangerous environment for people in a public setting like, say, school, and should be legally mandated.
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Fucking measles, shits spreadin' like AIDS in Africa!
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the worst part is, no matter how much evidence you present these people they cannot be convinced. they are sure that the study must have been in some way influenced by corrupt corporations or evil governments trying to steal your precious bodily fluids.
"well i'm healthy and i never got vaccinated. all my friends and i were treated with herbs and we were healthy, so it must work!" that's not science. that's conjecture. medicine is based on science: self-examining processes which are continually in the practice of disproving themselves in an effort to obtain better methods. i think it's worse than religion because if you don't believe what i believe, nothing happens. if you don't vaccinate and start an outbreak, you ought to be punished for it severely.
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the issue was that amy has been bitching because i want our kid to get vaccinated and she's been brainwashed by this new legion of wellness parasites to think that western medicine is evil.
Just say you’re taking Scarlet to the park, and go get her shots. :)
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Do MMR vaccinations cause Autism? Most of the support is based on correlational data that doesn't take into numerous confounding variables (increases in the population, autism aware doctors, etc.)
A better correlational predictor would be gender, which should make you happy that she's a girl :p
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i'll give scarlet a love juice vaccination with my syringe.
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I don't know too many people that are directly affected by this, and so I wanted to know how you are dealing with this with Amy, Digo. How did she come to the conclusion that vaccinations are bad?
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Most of the support is based on correlational data that doesn't take into numerous confounding variables (increases in the population, autism aware of doctors, etc.)
DING DING DING
unfortunately, trying to explain this to someone who has made up their mind that western medicine is the devil is like trying to explain to a born-again christian that the world really isn't 6,000 years old. no amount of evidence will convince them.
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Digo, I said I'm gonna pork your daughter dawg.
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Money always speaks volumes, so tell her either the kid gets the vaccine or the allowance shrinks.
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is like trying to explain to a born-again christian that the world really isn't 6,000 years old. no amount of evidence will convince them.
I remember talking to girl while I was in college who believed this was true. It was like talking to a wall. No reason what so ever made a difference. Seeing people like that blindly follow a faith has turned me off of religion completely.
So to get on topic. People who don't immunize their children should be shot for child neglect.
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how about just arresting them for reckless endangerment
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a lot of schools and colleges now don't allow people in without up to date immunization records, so unless Amy feels like home schooling your kid for 12 years ....
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I had to send an immunization form to Mankato :(
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Immunizations are safe, effective, and provide a wealth of benefits that outweigh any concerns.
Just to quickly address some of the points brought up in this thread:
1) Autism. Many years ago mercury was a component in some vaccines (it no longer is). Mercury was thought to lead to autism. In fact, one tuna steak has more mercury in it than all the vaccinations given in Louisiana each day. In addition, the definintion of autism has broadened into the 'autism spectrum disorders'. Since the definition is so broad now, it is easy for curbside scientists to show correlation between almost anything and autism. Remember, correlation does not equal caussation.
2) There is ALWAYS a slim chance that any inoculation/treatment/food/stepping outside/driving a car can cause damage. Vaccinations are proven to be safe. That being said, it is hard to argue with a mother who suspects here child is the "one in a million"
3) The "Well I didn't get vaccinated and I'm fine" is based on the theory of herd immunity. If you have 1000 people, and you vaccinate 990 of them, the odds that the 10 un vaccinated people will get disease is slim to none, primarily due to the fact that the vast majority cannot function as carriers or vectors. The scary thing is this: What happens when people stop taking vaccines? Herd immunity breaks down, and we are stuck with an outbreak the likes of the 1918 flu epidemic (read about it).
Get your kids vaccines, talk to your pediatricians, and always ask questions. I commend you and your wife for taking an objective look at the issue, but bottom line, I always advocate for vaccinations in my office.
Oh and btw, its actually not a big money maker for the physicians, it costs way more to store the vaccine properly than we are reimbursed by the insurance companies for giving them to patients.
Peace,
Btw grats on guild accomplishments
-Drug
Dwarfmafia Agent
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Like Galactus coming to eat a planet, Drug has returned to impart great knowledge on this board about all things medical.
(read: people will ask about boners and stds)
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Drug,
I got a flu vaccine and now have a persistent erection, what should I do?
Sincerely,
-Aqua
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Get your kids vaccines, talk to your pediatricians, and always ask questions. I commend you and your wife for taking an objective look at the issue, but bottom line, I always advocate for vaccinations in my office.
Oh and btw, its actually not a big money maker for the physicians, it costs way more to store the vaccine properly than we are reimbursed by the insurance companies for giving them to patients.
heh, i've only been objective in the sense that i want conclusive evidence -- not just conjecture from uneducated, paranoid mothers -- before i decide that vaccines are harmful. i've been incredibly skeptical about the anti-vaccination movement. in fact, i'm a little annoyed when doctors (please don't take offense at this) say things like "i commend you for researching this!" when all the parents are doing is reading a bunch of insipid blogs from quacks and celebrities....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5WTaLnDPY4
... and then mistaking correlation with causation. god, jenny mccarthy is an idiot. watching that video makes me furious.
anyway, sorry. i get annoyed at what seems like cursory respect from physicians to these people. how can you guys not just want to get the torches and kill the stupidity before it spreads? is this something that doctors say just to get them to shut the fuck up?
oh, and question about the vaccine costs. i was told that doctors in the provider network are given mandates from the insurance companies about what kind of care they must provide in order to be part of the network. if i were an insurance company, i would absofuckinglutely want them to adhere to these standards, right? if i prescribe vaccinations and drugs that make people not get sick, then that means they don't have to go to the doctor, which means i don't have to pay the doctors to treat them, which means i make more profit, right? am i missing something here?
do you have a link to the costs of storing the vaccines vs. what you're actually reimbursed for? i would love to see that so i can show it to her.
she hasn't been objective at all. her father is a "doctor of oriental medicine" whatever the fuck that means, and so she's convinced that because it worked for her and her sister, then it must be sound science. her father is also a tinfoil conspiracy nut. you can imagine this makes for exciting marital drama.
from her dad's site:
Modern science has verified the effectiveness of TCM which is over 7,000 years old. New techniques can be used simultaneously to enhance the healing effects. Among these are:
(1) Sound healing using tuning forks
(2) Tibetan bell sonics
(3) Natural organic rhythms, i.e. ocean waves, which allow the body to reach deep states of relaxation leading to profound physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual healing
(4) Cold laser and electrical stimulation of acupoints which can access difficult injuries to relieve pain and accelerate healing.
tuning forks? are you fucking joking?
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oh, and read about the poling case. they awarded those parents money WITHOUT A HEARING. the court completely abandoned preponderance of evidence, no expert testimony, nothing. what the fuck were they thinking? it's like they opened the floodgate for stupidity and frivolous, baseless lawsuits.
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In terms of the reimbursement for a physician for vaccinating, its nothing. I handled a lot of the billing for my parent's general practice and the physician ends up losing money on each immunization that they give when you figure in the cost of the nurse and the vaccine. Medicaid won't even reimburse for the cost of the vaccine which could range from $30-100. You get $7 for giving a shot...thats it. So if the physician bought the vaccine themself, they are losing potentially $93 each shot before you even factor in operating costs. This is a extreme case and private insurances reimburse better then the government since they actually factor in the cost of the vaccine.
My parents actually stopped doing vaccinations because they were losing so much money on it. Now they just have parents go to a health clinic for all their kids immunizations.
Edit. Just called to confirm and my mom (former ER doctor) said that immunizations are perfectly safe and it has been proven that they do not cause autism.
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Give me your mom's number, I'd like to discuss this and other topics.
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In terms of the reimbursement for a physician for vaccinating, its nothing. I handled a lot of the billing for my parent's general practice and the physician ends up losing money on each immunization that they give when you figure in the cost of the nurse and the vaccine. Medicaid won't even reimburse for the cost of the vaccine which could range from $30-100. You get $7 for giving a shot...thats it. So if the physician bought the vaccine themself, they are losing potentially $93 each shot before you even factor in operating costs. This is a extreme case and private insurances reimburse better then the government since they actually factor in the cost of the vaccine.
My parents actually stopped doing vaccinations because they were losing so much money on it. Now they just have parents go to a health clinic for all their kids immunizations.
now imagine if these retarded class action suits go to trial and a bunch of emotionally swayed, ignorant jurors start awarding them money. bye-bye government funding for free vaccinations!
hi2u polio/smallpox/whatever. it's nice to see you again!
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Digo, stop being a douche. this ain't going to go anywhere, it's just a bunch of morons and your wife. beat her into submission and get on with your life.
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oh, and question about the vaccine costs. i was told that doctors in the provider network are given mandates from the insurance companies about what kind of care they must provide in order to be part of the network. if i were an insurance company, i would absofuckinglutely want them to adhere to these standards, right? if i prescribe vaccinations and drugs that make people not get sick, then that means they don't have to go to the doctor, which means i don't have to pay the doctors to treat them, which means i make more profit, right? am i missing something here?
I didn't really comment on this before, but this is something you are going to see more of in the future. Insurance companies giving physicians "bonuses" if you will for following certain guildlines or for keeping their population of patients healthy.
Here is an example. Lets say that an insurance company has decided that a certain set of care guidelines is the best at reducing the chance for a person to have heart problems. That insurance company then has a lot of power in getting a physician to treat their patients in a certain way. They will give a provider more money for peforming the "correct" care. It may be as simple as making sure the provider has tried to control the patient's weight by recommending an exercise program or diet. It could however get the point where a insurance company will only pay a provider if they perscribe a specific medication or follow a extremely narrow plan of care.
So, is this good or bad? Well it has the potential to act as a double check to make sure a physician is providing the appropriate and recommended care. However, if the physician feels like they are forced into providing care that is not appropriate for a specific patient then these incentives have basically taken the power out of the physician's hands and put it into the hands of insurance companies.
The company I work for is trying to "eliminate insurance companies" by basically becoming one and doing it better. What I described above is part of what they hope to accomplish.
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Is that what goes on during pillow talk with you and Mrs. cougar?
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Gadz, can you do me a favor and ask your mom if she can find evidence of what it costs doctors to provide vaccinations? (or maybe you can get it from work?) She refused to believe that doctors aren't making money on providing vaccinations.
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I can probably dig something up.
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http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940CE3D7163AF936A15755C0A9639C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1
this article pretty much puts a nail in the coffin of the whole argument. unfortunately, the people against vaccines don't seem to acknowledge facts and evidence, so i guess it doesn't matter.
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digo she's a woman what do you expect. she'd performed her function in life so now she has to go back to acting like an imbecilic, obstinate attention whore. it's all a part of the process dawg
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unfortunately, the people against vaccines don't seem to acknowledge facts and evidence, so i guess it doesn't matter.
You can try this, but I can't guarantee it will work because I've never had the patience to try it.
(http://www.venganza.org/piratesarecool4.gif)
Photoshop the labels in the image to say "vaccination" and "autism" or something. Show the vaccination picture first and ask if it sounds reasonable and scientifically valid. Then show that the decline of pirates is statistically correlated to the rise of global warning and ask why that doesn't sound equally reasonable. Seriously.
*edit: I'm being totally serious about this btw, the only way I can think of to demonstrate to some people that they have problems recognizing logical fallacies is to draw parallels to an absurd example. Try it.
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Try to sell her the rock that keeps tigers away.
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Scarlet has bright future ahead.
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Yeah Medicaid won't even reimburse for the cost of the vaccine which could range from $30-100 and you could just get a $7 for giving a shot. And a extreme case and private insurances reimburse better then the government since they actually factor in the cost of the vaccine.
_________________
Travel insurance quote (http://www.mnui.com/quotes.asp)
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who are you?
And working in medical billing I can tell you they charge 100$ for something that costs half that much because they know medicare won't cover the full cost, and ppl without insurance are only going to be able to pay what they can. So private insurers cover the difference when they tell them it costs 100 bucks because they pay the 100 bucks.